Genii Weblog

ODF vs. Notes rich text: Nested lists (was: Any interest in ODF vs. Notes rich text functional differences?)

Mon 10 Jul 2006, 10:19 AM



by Ben Langhinrichs
As I investigate Open Document Format (ODF) internals, and as we move closer to Hannover and the include ODF-compliant applets (for want of a better word), I am starting to compile a list of differences in inherent functionality between what you can and can't do with ODF and Notes rich text (and perhaps HTML/XHTML).  I was wondering if my readers were interested in this sort of thing.  I'll give an example:

Differences in Nested Lists
A nested ordered list in Notes rich text is based on the left margin, so in the following list (shown with images because of the translation to HTML necessary fo a blog)

Nested ordered list in Notes
Figure 1: Nested ordered list in either Notes rich text or ODF

the numbering starts over again when the list is nested, which happens whenever the indentation changes.  That same list becomes a single numbered list if the indentation of all items is made the same:

Nested ordered list in Notes after flattening margins
Figure 2: Nested ordered list in Notes rich text after flattening left margins

In Open Document Format, nesting is deterimined by one list being contained by another, so the first list above would look the same, but be represented internally in XML as:

nested ordered listin XML for ODF
Figure 3: Nested ordered list in ODF in XML

If you look above, there is an outer <text:list> item with a style name for the main list, then a nested <text:list> item for the nested list.  So, in ODF, if we were to flatten the margins, we would not get Figure 2, but instead we would get Figure 4, below:

Nested ordered list in ODF after flattening margins
Figure 4: Nested ordered list in ODFafter flattening left margins

You could not get an ordered list in Notes to look like this, although you could get close by making the margin only a tiny, tiny bit different and hoping people didn't notice.  Similarly, in Notes, you could not get Figure 5, below, although it is less clear why you would want to:

Non-nested ordered list with different margins
Figure 5: Non-nested ordered list with different margins

Similarly, there some nested lists you could not easily get in ODF, but I will cover those in another post if people are interested.

Copyright © 2006 Genii Software Ltd.

What has been said:


471.1. Richard Schwartz
(07/10/2006 08:25 PM)

This reader is interested


471.2. Alan Lepofsky
(07/10/2006 08:36 PM)

I'm interested! You taught me something today, I never noticed that you could not indent numbered lists. (shows that i've rarely used one in 12+ years!)


471.3. Sean Burgess
(07/10/2006 09:48 PM)

This is definitely something that is going to be on my radar screen as the time of Hannover draws near. It will also be interesting to see what kind of api's will be available and how they will compare to the COM interface we use today with Office.


471.4. Ben Langhinrichs
(07/10/2006 10:18 PM)

@Alan - I guess part of my goal is to educate people about Notes rich text as well as about ODF. Glad to hear your learned something (as you are normally the teacher with your blog).

@Rich and Alan - I'll keep posting these as they strike me, but will probably come up with a more concise but more complete list/doc later in the project. Thanks!


471.5. Mark Vincenzes
(07/11/2006 05:34 PM)

@Alan - you [b]can[/b] indent numbered lists, you just can't indent a few of the entries (without creating a separate numbering for the indented list).

For even more fun, try this: start a numbered list at 1" indent, add a few entries. Then indent to 2" and add a few entries (the will start numbering again at one). Then go "out" to 1.5" - the entries should start numbering again at 1. Finally, go back to 1" and the entries should continue numbering where the first few at 1" left off.

Now, convert to HTML and make it look just like the client.


471.6. Ben Langhinrichs
(07/11/2006 06:35 PM)

Alan - Mark is right, of course. And he isn't kidding about how much fun it is to make it look right in HTML (although Midas does that quite well). As for making it look the same in ODF... that is for the future, perhaps.

Mark - Welcome! Always glad to get your input/feedback/insight.


471.7. Paul Ryan
(07/12/2006 03:30 PM)

Thanks for this Ben!

You asked us to report if we were interested in this stuff. I am. That said, honestly, I didn't find this topic particularly interesting, except to note that ODF consists entirely of XML, something that I hadn't quite registered before. Therefore, and as your example clearly demonstrates, ODF files are going to be very fat compared with proprietary formats like Notes rich-text or Microsoft formats.

Digressive musing...what XML really needs is a widely-used, maybe even compulsory, compression component to combat the bloat problem. Maybe there is something like that out there, and I'm just not aware of it. Hmm...